The Salt Sessions

Transcript

 

0:14
Hi, I'm Bev Salt, welcome back to the Salt Session Season 2.

0:19
Today I wanted to talk about the art of juggling motherhood and running a business.

0:25
Personally, I set up Add Salt 41/2 years ago and today I'm joined by two other mums in marketing here in a similar position to me, Hannah and Lucy.

0:36
Before I ask you to introduce yourselves, I want to share a story about how Hannah and I actually met.

0:41
So Hannah and I met at a Mums in Marketing event in Leeds and we walked from the train station to the venue we were going to.

0:51
I was in the toilet with my friend Kate Bateson.

0:55
Hi, Kate.

0:56
If you're listening, she's a fabulous copywriter, by the way.

0:59
Kate and I were talking and Kate said to me, do you know Hannah Zora Strong?

1:03
I said, oh, wait, I've just literally met her.

1:05
I might invite her on my podcast, actually.

1:08
And then we hear a toilet flush out comes the cubicle, Hannah and she said, "Are you talking about me?"

1:14
It's a good job.

1:14
We we were being nice about you, Hannah.

1:16
That's how Hannah and I met and Lucy and I met at a digital marketing forum event in London.

1:23
That's when we first first met face to face back in the summer of 2024.

1:29
So without further ado, can you both in 30 seconds, can you introduce self Lucy?

1:34
Yeah, I'm a freelance designer.

1:37
I do websites, graphics, branding and I'm based in York.

1:43
Hannah Yeah, I'm a Google Ads, LinkedIn ads specialist.

1:48
I've been working with Google Ads, LinkedIn for the last 10 years and I'm based in Newcastle.

1:54
self-employed women tend to gravitate towards industries such as health and social care, education, personal services such as hairdressing, fitness instructors and then creative and media, which is where we're all a part of.

2:09
So for me, I personally went freelance due to flexibility, working around the school hours and the school holidays.

2:18
Can you tell us why you wanted set up your own business Hannah?

2:22
Yeah, So just took tonight the 10 year there's experience part.

2:26
So I cut my teeth in agencies.

2:28
I think like like many people, I started as exec, manager, senior and then I got prompted to head head of PPC at 2 agencies in the Northeast.

2:35
And that was great.

2:36
I really enjoyed the roles and really wanted to kind of create a seat at the table for myself because at the time the head of PPC role didn't exist.

2:45
So I kind of made it my career mission to make that job role exist by expanding the team and growing the client base, which was great.

2:52
But then the same week that I got promoted to that head of PPC glorious job title, I found out I was pregnant.

3:01
So I was like, Oh yeah.

3:02
So it was like a plan pregnancy, pregnancy and that sort of lifestyle shift made me think about what I wanted from the future of my job.

3:11
And actually, I realised that I miss the day-to-day client interaction and actually working hands on on the campaigns that that's what I missed about the role.

3:21
And obviously being a people manager and I was in charge of operations and new business, it's it was very not doing the do and that's the bit that I missed.

3:30
So when I came back after mat leave, I started to take the steps to set myself up self-employed to, to eventually move out of that full time role into self-employment.

3:41
So that was kind of my motivation for it, I guess just getting back to doing the do.

3:47
Lucy?

3:47
Yeah, similarish here.

3:48
I was working in London.

3:50
I was an Interactive TV designer at the BBC for several years and I was thinking to my future because all Interactive TV then was based in London and I didn't really want to bring up kids in London.

4:00
I wanted to move back to York.

4:01
So as I'd stepped into e-commerce and marketing design, I've always designed.

4:07
And from there I was working at an agency in London and I was made redundant.

4:13
Then Hannah, I got pregnant and it had been trying for a while and I think it was sort of relaxation of not having a job, getting pregnant.

4:21
And I was like, oh, I don't have a job now, but my husband, who's a web developer, had already gone freelance, so it was something I'd been contemplating anyway.

4:28
So I started freelancing after I'd been made redundant.

4:31
And so I just wanted to be able to have the flexibility of working from home around kids.

4:36
So I never really had a job to go back to.

4:37
It wasn't like I ever had maternity pay or anything like that.

4:41
And so, yeah, we ended up moving back to York and I've freelanced now for 15 years because my eldest son's 14.

4:47
And that's how my freelance journey began.

4:51
Experienced freelancer.

4:53
Hannah, can you share your journey once you decided, right, This is it.

4:56
I'm setting up on my own.

4:57
How did you start out and how did you find your first client?

5:04
So I actually got my first client while I was pregnant with my daughter, my daughter's five and my son's 3.

5:09
So when I fell pregnant thought, Oh no, I'm going to need some sort of side hustle here to kind of keep me fed and watered, get to baby classes when I'm on leave.

5:19
So I thought if I pick up a couple of clients, low maintenance, similar comms, don't need weekly calls, then I can, it was like a bit of a bonus for the coffee dates and the play dates.

5:29
So I actually found my first freelance client would be 5 1/2 years ago now.

5:34
They were fully aware of the situation.

5:36
They knew that I was going on maternity leave.

5:38
But as I say, because there wasn't any high comms requirements, they were quite happy for me to tinker in the background and work around naps and weaning and breastfeeding and keep the campaigns ticking over.

5:49
So it was nice to have that flexibility.

5:51
But it dipped my toe in the water because I was like, actually, oh, if I can manage clients and work through this on an evening and in a weekend for extra pocket money, then it seems like a no brainer.

6:00
Yeah, definitely.

6:02
And Lucy, how did you go about finding your first client?

6:04
I utilised Twitter at the time.

6:07
I searched for people, searching for designers in London.

6:10
So I went into some places and I found some work through people I used to work with.

6:14
So it was sort of a network.

6:15
I don't remember any networking events was one I went to, but there weren't many networking events so it was a bit different to to nowadays.

6:23
I found that my husband who was already established working in agencies, freelancing has always consistently had a bit more work than me and I think it is because of the London connections and things like that.

6:34
But yeah, I was just looking online for work really and managed to find quite a bit locally.

6:39
Great. Being a mother as we all know there will be unpredictable situations like you could have a planned client meeting, on the morning.

6:48
Oh no, my child's sick, can't leave them.

6:50
What do I do?

6:51
So I'd like to hear about your experiences of how you manage unpredictable situations.

6:57
Hannah, I had one last week actually never goes away, even as the kids are a bit older.

7:02
I have I'm working with a charity client and everyone's on a like a voluntary basis.

7:06
So it's generally out of hours because most people have a nine to five, so.

7:10
The monthly catch up on Zoom is right slap bang in the middle of bedtime, which is usually when the kids kick off and they refuse to go to sleep.

7:18
And we've all been there and I can just hear like the screaming and shouting and I'm like, I'll just get them in.

7:22
So I just had to literally pop him on my knee and continue with the call just with myself on mute.

7:26
So he was entertained seeing himself on screen and everybody sort of appreciated that you have kids.

7:31
Life is happening around this call.

7:33
It's an out of hours call and clients get it.

7:35
Majority of my clients are parents themselves and they respect that.

7:40
There's always going to be a blend of work and life, but you, as long as you bring your best self to the campaign, they're OK with the kids floating about.

7:51
And Lucy, have you had any unpredictable situations you want to share?

7:56
Yeah, lots.

7:57
I suppose.

7:57
Since COVID, I think people have been a lot more sorry, the word appreciative of giving an appreciative of what people go through when I've got kids.

8:07
So I remember during COVID I think was the worst time for me because I was had a contract for part time work with was it York and I was doing design work for them and I had two kids who were something like 6 and 8 at the time.

8:20
And so my parents actually went on the iPad with one of them, sorted him out.

8:25
Then I found out the other one hadn't been doing so much work as I thought he had.

8:28
Yeah, since then I think people have been a lot more better understanding of flexibility and working like that.

8:33
At the moment I've got one child off, 14 year olds off today, one was off.

8:37
The 12 year old is off last week, 3 days.

8:39
And it has got easier in that respect because they can now sort themselves out.

8:44
I do remember them when they were younger having chicken pox and things like that.

8:47
And if I was working, I'd have to work in the evening.

8:49
But I think that's why I always wanted to work for myself, to have that flexibility.

8:53
And I'll just message people and say, sorry, my child's ill.

8:56
I'll be doing the work at some point.

8:57
And I'm never usually on huge time pressures.

9:00
I always say to people that I work five days, but I won't be working solely for you on one day.

9:05
I'll be working across those five days.

9:07
And I think that's how I I manage it a lot of the time.

9:10
Really.

9:10
Yeah.

9:10
That's good because you're working from home, so home is also the office as well.

9:17
Do you find it hard setting boundaries between family and work life?

9:21
Do you want to take that one first, Lucy?

9:22
Yeah, I think because my husband also works with me.

9:25
Or will it work?

9:26
Will it always work on the same projects?

9:27
And he's always telling me off for checking emails out of office hours.

9:32
But I find that if I do that, that keeps something on top of things a bit more.

9:36
We have an office that we can shut the door on, but then equally it's very easy to go and do extra bits here and there.

9:43
So I do struggle with that.

9:44
And I think that probably is one of my downfalls.

9:46
But then I also think if I want the flexibility of say, sometimes occasionally going to a gym class in the morning, which I do sometimes, maybe once a month, I sort of treat myself and go out.

9:57
Then I like the flexibility that I can then come and check my emails in the evening and do a bit of work in the evening or do a quote in the evening.

10:04
I'm not a morning person.

10:04
It would never happen first thing.

10:06
It's always the evening for me or the weekend.

10:09
And how about you, Hannah?

10:12
Yeah, as you can see from the glamourous wallpaper behind me, this is the my office come playroom situation.

10:19
So I've been freelancing for three years.

10:21
And at first I was working from the kitchen table.

10:23
And then about two years ago we had the garage halved and have this as a temporary space for me.

10:29
So But the downside is it doesn't have a radiator and it doesn't have a window because I feel like, Oh no, it was a bit longer than that because it was during COVID.

10:37
We got it redone and like the wait time on a window was astronomical.

10:43
So I was just like, I'll just get it done.

10:45
Let's just, let's just go for it.

10:47
So now I'm feel like I've outgrown this space.

10:51
As I say, usually the kids are at school so there's never any conflict of use for this room.

10:57
But I am looking to get a garden office e-mail enquiries have been sent.

11:03
I have visited a few.

11:04
I am going to get some natural light in my life and that is the aim for 2025, so and the kids will know like that is my workspace.

11:13
That's going to be my little haven to yes, stop any of the conflict and barging in when I'm working.

11:19
So that does help because the kids know for us that they do tend to not before they come in our office rather than just barge in.

11:26
They've learned not to just like, like, you know, the toddler headspace taken a few years.

11:35
Yeah, Now they're older, they can respect it a little bit more, but it doesn't always happen.

11:39
And what my younger one does sometimes just come onto phone calls because here now probably just say what's going on, You're just more cheeky.

11:45
But yeah, no one seems to mind.

11:48
Yeah, I think my kids are the same age as yours actually, Lucy.

11:51
So they're 14 and 12.

11:53
So yes, they do tend to knock before they enter.

11:57
Now I, I tend to work around school hours, so I only have a set amount of time in the day to deliver my client work.

12:05
So for me, time management is of the utmost importance.

12:10
So for you guys, are there any tools that you've used to help with things such as time management or helping you maximise efficiency in your roles?

12:20
I'm very go with the flow really.

12:23
I thought of myself like creative and I, you know, I'm not very good at doing, yeah, doing time blocking and stuff like that because I'm more easily distracted.

12:32
But I tend to, I've got a lot of notebooks, so I've got one for Mims.

12:35
So if I'm on a Mims call, I write down.

12:37
So I know everybody I've spoken to, what they do.

12:40
And I've got one for clients.

12:41
I've got one for potential clients and I've got other are the ones for like kids and say courses that I might do.

12:48
So that tends to all be paper based.

12:50
And then I've got a spreadsheet which has got my clients, potential clients and people who decided to go as well, just so I can note that down.

12:57
I've just started that recently actually and also keep track of how much of charging people on the spreadsheet as well.

13:04
But apart from that, I'm not that great with time blocking.

13:07
I'd like to be but I've tried it and I'm not great I do try and get on some Co working so I think that does help remote online Zoom Co working.

13:15
Yeah.

13:16
What about you, Hannah?

13:18
I've just started doing a bit more of the the Co working, the virtual Co working as well.

13:22
So because I had my son Mondays and Fridays up until September last year, my time was very much head down.

13:31
Can't go to networking events, just need to do a full time job in 24 hours a week basically.

13:37
So I didn't do a lot of marketing, a lot the creative stuff.

13:41
It was very 100% the time on client work.

13:44
So since September, I've actually enjoyed being a bit more fluid with my time.

13:49
So I'm still doing the same work for clients, but I'm able to try and book in workshops and do physical Co working and go to more networking events and things.

13:57
So that's I'm still doing the same.

13:59
Yeah, billable work, but it's just spread out over five days, which has been really nice since the agency days.

14:03
And it's something that I'm glad that I kind of had that background in it with my team across the agency.

14:08
We used time tracking software and that's a ball like to some people I get, but I'm now just into the habit of making a note of what I've done, why I've done it, and allocate in minutes to it or whatever.

14:20
And then at the end of the month and I'm doing client reports, I could pull out a bullet point list of everything that I've done that month and then talk about the next steps and map the performance based on what I've done.

14:31
So that's helpful for the client side.

14:33
But then once a quarter, I'll export that data and say, right, the clients paid me X time spent on the clients BY am I over servicing?

14:42
Am I under servicing?

14:43
Am I improving my hourly rate essentially?

14:48
And that helps me with capacity planning.

14:50
So if I know that have a target cost per hour or like price per hour and I can build that into how many hours I've got available.

14:58
And as I say, I'm trying to keep it at 24.

15:00
I don't want to be doing 40 hours a week billable client work because it's no fun and I just want to get out more.

15:08
So the time tracking has been really crucial to being able to do the maths behind getting the balance between like the marketing and the networking, which is obviously unpaid, unbillable versus the client time that is.

15:20
Yes, I'm the same.

15:21
I do time track everything.

15:23
Even when I go to the toilet, I pause the tracking.

15:28
So yes, I think from from the time perspective, it's just also useful to know when, how much time I spend on business development, my own marketing on a monthly basis.

15:39
So I can just pull off a report going this month.

15:42
I haven't actually done any business development.

15:44
You know, I need to get better next month.

15:46
Yeah, all for time tracking.

15:49
I've got to say, as an extrovert, when I was first self-employed, I really struggled with the lack of colleagues and not having anyone to bounce ideas off.

15:59
So I realised quickly that I had to go out and build my own network.

16:03
So I'd be interested to hear how you both build your network.

16:07
So Lucy, so I've started well in London, I was when I started freelancing, but there wasn't much there.

16:14
I went to one networking event.

16:15
We're actually a very good friend of mine now since being in New York, not much came up or that I knew of until COVID really well, there was a bit, but I tended to do, I started online in COVID, some women's groups and there's been some really good women's only groups in New York.

16:32
There's also some networking for everybody events in New York.

16:35
They tend to attract different, different crowd, which is nice.

16:39
But I find actually the support has come from some of the women's ones because our people are mums or at least in the same sort of working from home environment and wanting a bit of advice and support.

16:50
We do might tend to refer work to each other as well, but also since nearly the two years now since I've been in mums in marketing online, which has been great for networking.

17:02
I've obviously met you 2 both in person events and in London, where I met loads of people and leaves met loads of people in person, but I'm actually just being online for most of the networking on Wednesday mornings which I go to.

17:14
I've met lots of people and women have been really supportive and again, referring or just people being there in case you've got a problem.

17:22
And it's just, I think for me, it's starting yourself people who to understand freelancing and understand the challenges that brings.

17:31
But I've also been looking as far as my husband's a freelancer as well.

17:34
So, and he's got a design background so I can run ideas and bounce ideas off him and vice versa.

17:39
So that's helped as well.

17:41
Hannah, I'm going to start with what Lucy said about the husband thing.

17:46
I'm going to point upstairs because my husband is upstairs.

17:48
We met an agency.

17:49
So I was head of PPC and he was head of SEO at the first agency that I worked at.

17:55
And then he's gone to a couple of other companies after that and then set up freelance himself about six or eight months ago.

18:03
So again, like Lucy, it's been helpful to have him to bounce ideas off of.

18:07
I've got kind of a client issue because we've both been in that environment for the last 10-15 years.

18:11
In his case, it's been nice to, even though I'm working from home and I'm just working on my clients, have him as the sounding board.

18:19
And in terms of overall network, when I went freelance, thankfully had a couple of ex colleagues who had, you know, we're all kind of seniors and then heads together.

18:31
When they left the agency that I was at with them, they set their own agencies or went freelance and they do SEO.

18:38
So it was a complimentary service.

18:39
So whenever they had a PPC enquiry or a client that had a PPC need, they would call on me.

18:46
So when I went freelance, I kind of had a Bank of clients already there from the referrals from them.

18:54
And then with Kev as well, he had a similar story where you've got all your colleagues, ex colleagues and then you've got all your clients that you've ever worked with, plus they've got new jobs and moved on.

19:05
And so actually it was not hard.

19:09
I didn't feel like I needed to graft and get out there and, you know, power the pavement essentially to get to get work initially because I had that network there for when I first launched.

19:22
I do actually work.

19:23
I partner with a couple of agencies as well.

19:25
So I have like a Hannah at agency e-mail address.

19:29
The clients are aware that I'm a freelancer because I was like, how do I have my own voice on LinkedIn and solar marketing, but also be the face the like the PPC arm of your business.

19:38
So everybody's transparent that it's a contractor relationship essentially, but it's just meant that they deal with the contracts, they deal with the reporting system.

19:48
I can just, you know, plug and play my PPC optimization and they get to work with someone that they trust and then the clients get the same kind of client experience and same SLAs that my own clients get.

20:01
So as long as so I highly recommend it partnering with an agency and having it's more it's more admin with e-mail addresses, having to manage more inboxes, but the contracts are guaranteed as a client signs a contract is 12 months, It's set in stone then.

20:15
So it's a nice balance to have more project based work from my business and then more retainers through the agency.

20:22
Yeah.

20:22
And how do you go about meeting new people when you do need more work?

20:27
Networking.

20:27
I'm trying to do more networking, especially now something nursery.

20:30
So yeah, I've tried to use that extra two days a week to get out more.

20:35
I had on my 2025 vision board to deliver more workshops and through that you obviously meet, meet new people.

20:41
So it's free, it works like you're there and you're delivering kind of a master class sort of thing.

20:45
And I've done them for Mims as well for free, just to kind of get your name out there.

20:48
But like Lucy said, the Mims group has been great, now known for Google Ads.

20:52
I've done some resources there and people tag me and people who I've met and haven't just from being known in the group.

21:01
So that's been a really valuable source.

21:03
I'm just trying to keep up with the weekly calls.

21:06
I put them all in my diary so I make sure I don't forget.

21:08
But when client calls overlap, it's like stress.

21:11
You have to be present because I think the tendency, you could say, oh, there's a million and one networking groups, let's go join all 10.

21:17
But before the end of it, you haven't been to any and you've spent all this money on subscriptions.

21:21
And I find that it's quality over quantity.

21:24
I'd rather go to a few groups and know everybody really well and like the regular phases and build up those relationships over time than spreading yourself too thinly, going to here, there and everywhere and not.

21:36
Yeah, you get to meet more people, but it's not meaningful connections.

21:40
Yes, absolutely.

21:41
Yeah.

21:42
And I try and I do try and go get out and about when I can to do face to face networking as well, but that's quite rare.

21:50
Now we, I think we've talked about the positive sides to going self-employed and freelancing, but I'm now going to talk about the downsides to it as well because I'm not going to lie.

22:01
There are downsides to going self-employed and to setting up your own business.

22:05
And I think for me, the biggest issue I've found is the lack of holidays.

22:11
So I can't take more than two consecutive weeks off because if I do, who's going to do my work?

22:16
And in the past, I have tried paying someone to, to cover for me, but I've just found like, but I'm paying for my holiday, now to pay someone else to do my work.

22:25
So the lack of holidays I've really struggled with and I think in the last four years I've taken about 20 days annual leave a year, and that's including bank holidays.

22:36
So that's pretty shocking.

22:38
Bear in mind there are eight bank holidays a year.

22:40
So Hannah, what, what have you found to be an issue with freelancing in your experience?

22:49
The Yeah.

22:50
Lack of sick leave and the understanding my life when the kids are sick, everything's down.

22:54
Tools.

22:55
It's a lot slightly easier now because me and my husband will compare Diaries and be like who's got the most expensive day if we let the team down.

23:03
Or we'll try and tag team it where I'll do the morning shift and he'll do the afternoon shift.

23:08
So at least it's not the burden isn't on one person.

23:13
Just to come back to the holiday point, though, I wanted to, it might not be for everyone, but I just wanted to talk about a working holiday that I did in the summer.

23:22
It's through a company called Boundless life.

23:25
It's, it's set up for digital nomad parents and it's great.

23:29
You can either sign up for like a three month cohort if you're like world schooling.

23:32
Me and my daughter just went for a month because they do a July and August kind of four week cohort and we went to Italy for a month in August.

23:41
I took the first week off because there was lots of travel and introductions and showing around.

23:47
You know, the whole point of this, this kind of boundless community, I guess is the kids go to school at school hours five days a week.

23:56
The parents get Co working space with snacks and coffee and good Wi-Fi and meeting rooms and then everybody gets an apartment.

24:05
So you pay one price and you get those three elements included and they'll pick you up from the airport and then you have your little apartment for the month.

24:15
As I say, I had the first week off because it was a lot of like meet the parents, meet the teachers type stuff.

24:20
But then when we got into the rhythm of it, I would walk my daughter to school, drop her off for 9:00, pick her up at half three.

24:27
They do extracurriculars.

24:28
So she made fresh pasta.

24:30
So that was tea sorted for one night and it meant that I could still work at the Co working hub or working from from the apartment.

24:39
And then on an evening we could go out for ice cream or play with, you know, the other kids that were in her class and go on little adventures on a weekend.

24:48
And it actually gave us the best of both the working and the holiday because even though I had to pay to be there, I was still earning.

24:59
That's interesting.

24:59
I haven't heard of that actually.

25:01
So thank you for introducing me to that.

25:04
Lucy, any downsides to freelancing?

25:07
Well, one of them's, yeah, the school holidays.

25:10
Because for me, well, the main downside I think aside from that is unpredictability and earnings.

25:17
So for me, I very rarely have retainers.

25:20
I've hardly ever been able to get any.

25:21
People seem to want project based design.

25:23
So I do a website and I hand it over.

25:26
That tends to be how I work, for instance.

25:28
So I don't have, I can't say that I'm going to have X amount each month.

25:32
It just doesn't happen like that.

25:34
And so my problem is a bit like you, it's the holidays.

25:36
I don't want to take the time off because then I might miss out on something.

25:39
And so even in the holidays or if I'm away, I still check emails and I still try and say, if somebody asks for a designer on LinkedIn or something like that, I will still try and comment because I find that if I don't, then I'd come back to no work.

25:55
And so sometimes I've had to, I'd take to think last time I took two weeks off in a row was two years ago.

26:01
I'd take are you, I like you.

26:03
I'd probably take about four weeks all together off a year.

26:05
Maybe last year I did two 1-week holidays.

26:09
The year before that we didn't have a holiday.

26:10
The year before that we had two week holiday.

26:13
And when I did the two week holiday, because I had to say to people, I'm not going to be around.

26:17
What has happened is that they then go with somebody else in that time.

26:20
So maybe I should do what you said and try and hire somebody else.

26:23
But then I think what happens if I hire somebody else, they'd like them better and I'd rather.

26:27
So what I tend to try and do is try and just get on top of things.

26:30
So the week before I go on holiday and madly trying to get more stuff done in order to go away.

26:34
So I think it's, for me it's like the juggling holidays income.

26:38
Can I afford a holiday?

26:39
If I'd if I afford a holiday, that means I'm earning less.

26:42
Yeah, I think it's a juggling act really.

26:44
And also, yeah, not getting paid, as Hannah said, if you're sick to unless I've got really bad bug, I tend to always be trying to do a little bit of something each day.

26:53
Thankfully, as a kids get older have had less really bad bugs.

26:57
I've, you know, had five stomach bugs once we're no younger in a year and that wiped, wiped me out for several weeks altogether.

27:05
So yeah, it's a balancing I think for me is the downside.

27:08
Definitely.

27:09
And also I don't like the fact there's no pension contribution either.

27:12
Maybe the government should help us out there for self-employed people.

27:16
So what is the key thing that you've learned from going self-employed, Hannah?

27:23
And I think they kind of like maximising your network, obviously partnering with your with agencies, raising your rates often, as we all say, I like to do either turn of the year or start the new financial year.

27:34
It's like a hey guys, just so you know, because it's with the timing of the year, clients expect it more.

27:40
I would say something that I did early doors that a lot of people don't recommend.

27:46
So quite conversely is saying yes to projects in order to say no.

27:50
So a lot of freelancers will say, you know, the seasoned lot of us know what your strengths are, but you only know that because you've done it.

27:58
And you know what sort of clients you like working with.

28:00
You know the sort of projects that you like, you know the industries that you prefer, you know the time scales that you can work to.

28:05
All of that's trial and error.

28:07
But initially I just said yes to everything in order to find out what I liked and what I didn't.

28:13
So I'd say for anyone who's looking to start freelancing, say yes, no, so you can say no later.

28:19
Because the more stuff you take on, the more you can be picky and choosy about what you take next time.

28:26
And it's easier to say no to clients or not right now to projects when you full.

28:32
So that comes with time and experience to have the luxury of knowing what you like and you don't.

28:36
But yeah, just try everything initially.

28:39
I'd say it was a big tip, Lucy.

28:42
I say yes to everything, but my problem is I found I actually like doing everything.

28:46
So I still.

28:48
Well, in terms of design, yeah, I do.

28:49
There's not much I don't like doing.

28:50
There's a few things I'm not as keen on and someone did ask me to do some really intricate illustrations.

28:55
It wasn't my thing.

28:56
Recently I've said I can't do that, I'll do simple ones, but I don't do that.

28:59
That will take me far too long.

29:00
Yeah, most of that comes away I get really excited by because I just enjoy doing it all.

29:04
So I'm, I also, I don't niche in terms of sector.

29:08
I've sort of gone off on a tangent there, but yeah, I don't.

29:11
I like a variety of work, so for me, I would say yeah, don't necessarily put something to one side because you might not know until you've tried it.

29:20
But also I think in terms of freelancing and kids, I don't think you can necessarily have it all.

29:27
I think you're going to feel guilty however you work.

29:29
I don't think there's many people, and I think this is not just freelancers.

29:33
I think it's all my friends.

29:35
I've got guilt somewhere.

29:36
They're either guilty 'cause they're not working enough, they're guilty 'cause they're working too much, the guilty 'cause they're working different hours and don't see the kids, they're working far away and they've got to travel.

29:43
So I think in terms of parenting and freelancing, I'm happy where I am.

29:48
I realise that I I can't have a perfect working life and having kids, it's never going to happen.

29:55
One of them's going to be poorly, something's going to happen, something's going to break in the house.

29:59
So there's always something going on.

30:01
But that makes life more interesting.

30:02
And I think as long as open to things, maybe not necessarily going your way all the time, you'll be a lot happier.

30:09
And then there's one other thing I was going to say is that you've got to be prepared for the ups and downs as well.

30:15
It's not always going to be plain sailing.

30:18
There'll be clients you don't like, there'll be people who get annoyed with you, there'll be work you don't like.

30:25
There's going to be times when you don't have enough work on.

30:28
There's going to be times you've got too much work on.

30:30
So it's about being flexible.

30:32
And I think I'm a bit of a go with the flow person and I think that has helped really.

30:39
That's brilliant advice.

30:40
And for any listeners out there who might want to go self-employed, can you share one piece of advice that you would give them?

30:48
Hannah, it sounds clear, but start the side hustle over evenings and weekends if you can and reach out to your network ahead of the leap.

30:57
Because quite often people announce on LinkedIn when they've left a previous role or like, hey, we're going, I'm going self-employed.

31:04
And then we all know that it takes a couple of months for anyone who gets in touch for that project to come to fruition.

31:11
So the earlier that you can plant the seeds with people that this is coming in the future, then when you finally do announce it to the world, you've already got conversations warmed up in advance.

31:26
Something else that I haven't experienced it personally, but a friend of mine's had good success with hijacking job sites.

31:33
So she would have alerts from Indeed and you know, other job sites are available and she had a keyword or a job title alert and then she would message that say an agency or a brand was looking for an affiliate manager.

31:49
She would reach out and say, hey, I'm a consultant.

31:52
I specialise in XY and Z.

31:54
If you need someone immediately to fill this gap while you're hiring, here I am.

31:59
And with a bit like immediate availability.

32:02
And actually the number of times that's turned out, the jobs being revoked and they've just gone with her because she's doing just a job or it's plugged their gap for three months until they've done the recruiting process, trained that person off.

32:16
So it's just a good way to kind of get in front of people where you know, there's like a hot lead or like an immediate need is the old the old hijack method.

32:25
That's good advice, thank you, Lucy.

32:27
I also started freelancing alongside a full time role as soon as a little before kids.

32:34
I had time in the evenings.

32:35
I did design quite a bit then because I knew that that was where I wanted to go.

32:39
And so that is a really good advice from Hannah.

32:41
The other bit of advice I would say is surround yourself with people who understand you and are sort of your cheerleaders as well.

32:48
So if you've got people you've worked with in the past and they can recommend it to people, that's really good.

32:54
And also going with that, try and get recommendations on LinkedIn.

32:58
I always say to people, if I'm looking for somebody, I'm going to not say, you know, I might see somebody saying I'm a designer on, you know, on Facebook.

33:08
I've got 20 years experience.

33:10
I think I'll have you.

33:11
And so I go on to LinkedIn and I find out if they have or not and sometimes they don't and sometimes they haven't got that proof that they have.

33:17
So for me, I would say try and prove who you are and what your experience is and people will trust you more and be more likely to go with you.

33:25
Though there is also the problem isn't that people are thinking that women of a certain age aren't employable, but for me, I like that sort of person and I'm more likely to trust them.

33:36
So I think there's there's a two sides to that, really.

33:39
Yeah.

33:40
Thank you.

33:41
From my personal experience, I didn't have the luxury of setting up a side hustle.

33:46
I was, I took voluntary redundancy back in 2020, right in the middle of the global pandemic.

33:52
So it's a case of what?

33:54
I'm on my own now.

33:55
How do I find my first client?

33:57
Like you say, Hannah, there is with B2B buying, there is a lead time.

34:01
It took me 60 days to find my first client, 61 to find client #2 even now it takes me about 60 days to convert a client, certainly in B2B.

34:12
So if you can start a side hustle as Hannah and Lucy would do.

34:16
If not, just contact everybody.

34:18
You know, all your connections and networking, which is all I did and I probably did when I first started out.

34:24
Make the mistake of going to sites like Fiver or People Per Hour and just just avoid that.

34:31
You're competing with people based in India, you're competing on pricing.

34:35
So in the UK we're just not going to be able to do that.

34:39
And I'm going to ask you both my bonus question now, which is I'm going to ask all my guests in Season 2 this question.

34:46
And the question is, what is a small daily habit that you have had that's had a big impact on your success?

34:53
Hannah, hi.

34:54
I'm a big fan of a daily walk.

34:56
Sounds again, cliche.

34:58
When my husband was in his employed role, he would have two days a week from home.

35:03
And it was nice because we just go out for a walk over lunchtime and that felt like he steps in, feel re energised again, be able to have that sound and board.

35:12
So even though it was a break, it still felt like work because I could go.

35:17
But these are all the problems I'm having and he could fix them for me.

35:22
But while we were outside I will also say habit.

35:25
Stack that with personal development, so quite a lot, I know Lucy mentioned that you've got like a list of courses that you want to do, a big fan of a podcast and there's 5 or 6 PPC podcasts that release weekly episodes.

35:41
I like to combine learning and keeping up to date with the latest Google ads features with going outside.

35:50
Because then you feel like you don't feel as guilty.

35:52
I know it sounds weird, but like when you were freelancers, like a lot of guilt of like, having time off, you know, even though, like, having a lunch hour is absolutely needed.

35:58
And yeah, but there still is like the guilt associated with like, any time off.

36:03
If you're not being efficient, then yeah, I'd say just pop your headphones on, go for a walk, get your steps in, but also make it a lunch and learn and have some time to yourself for personal development.

36:14
Thank you, Lucy.

36:15
Yeah, I like to listen to things like podcasts when I'm at the gym, but for me, not daily.

36:20
I can't go every day, but I try and get out for some sort of a class or to the gym or for a swim, so maybe three times a week.

36:26
And that's really helped me with the working from home thing.

36:30
For me, it's like a change was seen and actually a physical way of getting the endorphins and things like that.

36:35
So I love to do that.

36:37
And the other thing is I try and keep track of emails and things I if I can't reply to them straight away, I make sure that they're unread or flagged.

36:47
It's just for me, it's keeping on track of a list of people who I need to respond to that type of thing.

36:53
Because I don't like to come back, say from a holiday or even overnight sometimes and come back to 40 emails because quite a lot of them can just be spam.

37:00
So for me, I just quite often will think, Oh, that's a work e-mail.

37:03
I won't, I won't look at that now, but there's five spam emails.

37:06
I'll just get rid of them.

37:07
And so it's just a case of me just keeping track.

37:09
I'd like either do a little and often than one big.

37:12
That's the way I work.

37:13
But my husband's different and everybody's different on that.

37:16
But that's just the way I am.

37:18
So daily habit is just keeping on track of to do lists and emails me.

37:22
Thank you.

37:22
Well, thank you both so much for your time today.

37:26
Thank you.

37:27
Bye bye.