The Salt Sessions

Transcript

0:10
Hello, I'm Bev Salt and welcome back to the Salt sessions.

0:14
I'm delighted to launch Season 3 and today I want to give a very warm welcome to Alice Widger from Milk it Digital.

0:22
Alice, you're a very special guest to me because you were my first ever guest in Season 1 of my podcasts.

0:29
And we talked about SEO insights at the time.

0:32
So can you introduce us to our listeners?

0:35
Yes, hello I'm Alice and I own Milk it Digital Limited.

0:40
I'm an SEO specialist.

0:41
I work with brands all across the UK from marketing departments to individual business owners B2B, E-commerce.

0:49
If it's sort of SEO and getting final search engines, then I do it.

0:53
Thank you. Today we're going to talk about Geo.

0:57
Is it just good SEO?

0:59
So I, I read an article recently which has only been updated on the 3rd of September.

1:04
So that was only seven days ago and the article is called ‘Bad News for Google.

1:09
New survey shows that people are now using AI instead of search engines’.

1:14
So it mentions a survey undertaken by Future AI Sentiment Wave 3.

1:19
And it claims that 62% of people in the UK now use AI tools like Chatgpt, Gemini and Copilot instead of traditional search engines to for certain tasks.

1:35
And it lists the top six things that people are using AI for.

1:40
First one is planning a holiday.

1:44
Next creating a personalised fitness plan.

1:48
People are using it to find the right gift.

1:50
I confess I have also used it to find the right gift as well.

1:54
Troubleshooting tech, comparing products.

1:58
I think this is a key one for marketeers like us because people are using it to compare prices, product differences, and perceived benefits.

2:07
I'm just going to give an example of my LED face mask search.

2:12
So I've been looking at an LED face mask.

2:14
Do you do you use one?

2:17
No, I don't know a little bit.

2:20
I have to say rRobocop Galactica style they do they do look a bit intimidating, don't they?

2:30
There's quite a few on the market.

2:32
So I've been using it to compare the different products, the pricing, what are the perceived benefits and what are the key differences.

2:39
And it's just a really quick way to pull up right.

2:43
These these are my top three.

2:44
Which one should I choose?

2:46
And then finally, people are using AI to draft emails and messages.

2:50
So I think from that survey, we can assume that behaviour is shifting towards AI first search.

2:58
So there's been a lot of buzz lately around the terms Geo, which stands for generative engine optimisation and LLMs, that's another one, which stands for large language models.

3:13
There's a lot of people out there who are offering expert advice on how to rank in AI.

3:19
And to use one of your terms, Alice, you call them Geo Bros, which is a very Gen Z.

3:32
From a business owner point of view and marketeers, we're now paying attention and we're asking the question, do I now need to incorporate Geo as part of my overall strategy?

3:43
So it's great to have you here today to discuss this in more detail.

3:47
Let's go back to the beginning then.

3:49
For people who are not familiar with the term GEO, can you explain what is GEO and why is everyone talking about it?

4:00
GEO is SEO's only joking.

4:04
So the term GEO is one of those things that it's cropped up.

4:09
And if you are on places like LinkedIn, Facebook, Instagram, you've probably seen it being sort of knocked around.

4:15
I would probably say that if you're a business owner or if you're someone who's not within marketing, it's probably something you're not particularly aware of, you've even heard before.

4:25
And I think that's where these things kind of come in.

4:28
This is where you get like these abbreviations from GEO, which sort of comes out.

4:34
So GEO is something which is like cropped up over the last.

4:38
I would say it's really started sort of gaining traction on LinkedIn and sort of the last, I would say 8 months, 12 months.

4:46
And it was being banded around before, but I was, to be honest, pretty much ignoring it.

4:51
It's come about because obviously things like ChatGPT, you've got Claude, you've got all these different platforms, all these different elements for doing AI search on.

5:01
Obviously ChatGPT is the largest one that was the one which has launched by Bing.

5:06
It's the one which has been out pretty much for longer and obviously Google has their own also Google has like their Google AI as well.

5:14
Overviews happening.

5:15
The GEO has been marketed as this thing that you now need to be doing to get your content found on ChatGPT and all its it's being sorted out to does this thing which is different to search engine optimisation.

5:31
And thing is with these with these things, is that is it actually something you need to be doing or is it just one of those things which is just frankly a scare tactic, a scare tactic to go, I need to sort it out.

5:45
This is a really urgent thing and I need to start paying more or paying someone else to do it over someone who is in so content marketing or in SEO for search engine optimisation.

5:57
In your opinion then, is there anything about GEO that SEO doesn't cover?

6:03
So I've been doing a lot of reading on it.

6:05
Obviously I'm an SEO, so I cut my teeth.

6:09
Obviously was search engines.

6:10
I've been doing for 12 years and search engines have just always been search engines.

6:15
And now we've got what I call search platforms.

6:18
For me, search engines, CHATGPT, that all come under the umbrella of a search platform.

6:27
I haven't seen anything from GEO tactics that SEO doesn't do and I've been reading a lot of posts on LinkedIn about it.

6:37
I've been watching different things, reading articles and as of yet, as of today's date, no one yet who is doing GEO has been able to give me a definitive answer of what they are doing is different to SEO.

6:52
They try, they do all things like, you know, we need to have schema on the website.

6:57
We need to like chunk content so it's easily read.

7:00
It's like, yeah, but in SEO we were doing that years ago.

7:04
And if you were doing SEO, you would have been doing that before anyway.

7:09
Or they'll talk about things like entities and things like that and sort of relevance of contents like.

7:15
But we have been doing that and clearly SEO and the people who've been doing good SEO have now been found on places like ChatGPT.

7:26
So my clients already appear on ChatGPT and across multiple other platforms just from the SEO we've been doing.

7:33
And interesting, like you said, you cited the article earlier on where you know experts on GEO have been recommended.

7:42
When you ask ChatGPT or GEO experts, they got recommended vehicles of the SEO work they did before.

7:51
So it kind of proves itself that GEO as of yet has not had anything different to SEI.

8:04
Yes.

8:04
So I've been reading GEO Bros are saying content needs to be AI readable.

8:10
So things like structured, having FAQs and having headings and just answering the question.

8:18
But like you just mentioned, that's what SEO experts have been doing and writing things in such a way for search engines to pick it up.

8:31
So it's not entirely different being found on AI search and GEO claims that you need a complete digital presence, so social media profiles or you need websites and you need to be in publications and trade publications.

8:50
But isn't that just digital PR that SEO experts have been doing for a long time now as well?

8:58
We've always said in SEO, having a social presence as well will help your SEO.

9:03
It's not a direct link unless you're using Pinterest, then it is seen as a direct link back to in terms of an SEO format, a backlink on Pinterest does count as a backlink.

9:16
But having social mentions all strengthens your overall brand within your SEO sort of campaign.

9:23
And that's the thing, like the ultimate goal of SEO is brand awareness.

9:28
And this is exactly the same with what we're calling GEO.

9:31
It's brand awareness.

9:33
That's what we've been doing with SEO, or at least if you've been doing SEO properly, then you would have been doing that anyway.

9:39
And we're seeing that play out now on ChatGPT.

9:42
You'll find the sort of brands that have got a very strong brand presence.

9:46
Obviously they're going to be found on ChatGPT and carrying on working on your brand.

9:50
Even if you're an emerging company, if you're building a website for the first time, putting those fundamental elements into your site, which you should be doing anyway.

10:00
A website isn't a stand alone thing.

10:02
A search.

10:02
You know, search engine optimisation isn't stand alone.

10:05
It's all part of the marketing puzzle.

10:07
Marketing puzzle is social, it is digital PR, you know, it is content, it is your website.

10:14
It's all these things together, all make up the, the, the, the fabric of search engine optimisation or GEO.

10:21
If you want to rename it, then it's all golden.

10:25
Yeah, yeah, I'm saying with citations as well.

10:29
Citation worthiness, which having things like clear quotes and references, which again, the SEO practitioners have been doing since SEO was born.

10:38
We've been banging the drum for years.

10:41
And it's like everyone because it's called something else.

10:47
By the way, I love the term GEO Bros.

10:49
So to use your phrase, why are GEO Bros the new backlink farmers?

10:55
So yeah, this was kind of a bit of a joke that was that was sort of happening on LinkedIn.

10:59
I spend a lot of time on LinkedIn for my for my sins and myself and like a couple other SEO's, SEO's have been talking about and the general feeling.

11:12
And I'm not going to name any GEOs out there.

11:14
I'm not, I'm not here to this anyone or bring anyone down, but it feels like some, some GEOS are sort of jumping on the bandwagon very much in the same way that backlink farmers did back when Google sort of what was it nearly 10 years ago now said that backlinks really actually quite important for your SEO and raising the profile of your website.

11:41
And suddenly we had this mass explosion of backlink farmers going, you know, we can get you backlinked to this, this and this and you know, you can buy them for a fibre and it's all golden and it's great.

11:53
Do great stuff for your SEO and you really, really need it.

11:56
I kind of feel like GEO is the new explosion or backlink farmers where suddenly AI has come along LMM as we've got new ways of searching, which is great.

12:07
It's all new ways to be found but it feels very dodgy and someone here I've been in this game a long time when they're just regurgitating what SEO is but dressed up in a new jacket.

12:25
Just makes me feel pretty icky.

12:27
Alice, for the benefit for those that don't know what a backlink is, can you just explain what a backlink is please?

12:36
Of course.

12:36
So a back link is a link from another website to yours.

12:40
But I'm an SEO for example.

12:42
So if I was featured in an article say on the Guardian, if I was lucky enough to get on the Guardian then they would hopefully link back to my website and then that would be counted as a back link to my website.

12:54
Thank you.

12:54
How can you get your content found on both search engines and LLMs?

13:02
So write good stuff.

13:03
But yeah, so write good stuff in a nutshell, but in a slightly more helpful way, is that when it comes to content, and I always say this to my clients, it's all about being relevant to your ideal client.

13:15
And whether that's if you're a marketing, if you're e-commerce, if you're service, whatever happens to be your end customer, your end client has an issue or something they need.

13:27
So you need to be thinking about your content in those terms.

13:29
You want to be thinking about your end user.

13:32
So it's like, what do they want?

13:34
What are they looking for?

13:35
And how do you provide that?

13:37
How do you fix that?

13:38
How is it that you deal with what with what they want?

13:42
So once you know what that is, your content is going to be less generic.

13:47
So I'm sure that everyone's tried out.

13:49
You've popped in a blog post idea to chatGPT and go on, yeah, write me a blog post on this and it comes back very generic because it is.

13:57
It's just basically an over overview of this thing that you do that people might need.

14:03
It doesn't do anything for you in terms of your business, who you are, what your clients, you know, specific needs are.

14:10
All of these things aren't included in a ChatGPT post, which is why unique content and actually having someone who is a really good writer is so, so important for, for not only your brand because people rising up to what ChatGPT sounds like and rights like, but it's also important in order to be found because you want to trust those things that people are actually looking for.

14:34
They've got, you know, if for example, you sell trainers, you don't just go on and have a blog post on trainers.

14:43
It's like, what are the best trainers for someone who has bunions, for example?

14:50
What are the best running trainers for the countryside in the mud?

14:55
You know, something on those lines, but you know, you start to drill down into very, you know, sort very niche needs, but there is a need behind it.

15:06
So then you want to start thinking about how you show that content.

15:09
And this is where GEO grows.

15:11
Like to say that GEO is different and they're like, it has to be what they call, I think they call it chunking, which sounds really gross.

15:19
It's like, sounds like someone's being sick anyway, So the idea of chunking is that you basically put text into chunkable bites that they, they're sort of easy to digest, which just this whole digestive thing happening of GE, I don't know what that's about.

15:37
This is no different to what we did before.

15:39
It's like all blog posts, you start with a good introduction.

15:43
What are people expecting to find blog posts to be about?

15:47
What's it going to cover?

15:49
And then we start to piece it out.

15:51
So we'll have our headings.

15:52
So we start with our H1 got our, you know, our title like, you know, best running shoes for muddy terrain, for example, for women.

15:59
And then we have our introduction and then we start to piece out the content.

16:04
So you start to use your H2 titles to piece it out.

16:07
If you've got content to separate within your H2 content, you can use H3S and you go down in the hierarchy through your H to your H titles that way.

16:17
And then each part has a purpose.

16:20
We don't just sort of ramble on about trainers in general and then skip to something about arts or, or mud or different types of mud.

16:28
We're doing a very set way.

16:29
So you've got your introduction, you start talking about maybe the terrain or issues that you might have running in the mud types of trainers.

16:37
Best for this, best for that, moving from road to mud and then back again, things like that.

16:42
Things which are going to make sense to the person reading it, what they might need and it's delivering that content which is easy to read for people.

16:50
First and foremost, you want your content to be easy to read for people and then search engines and then we at the end you can see a nice conclusion.

16:59
Also, you want to link to your products and categories, you know, sign up to newsletters, all those sorts of things and that call to actions.

17:05
This is no different for being found on ChatGPT or anywhere else.

17:11
It uses the exact same format.

17:14
If you want to call it chunking, if you're GEO bro, go ahead.

17:17
I just call it good content writing, something which is to understand and read.

17:23
And with the content, then would you recommend structuring in Q&A format?

17:29
So say this trainer business, I have flat feet.

17:33
What trainers would you recommend for people with flat feet?

17:36
Would you structure it like so?

17:38
Yeah, absolutely.

17:39
So that would be obviously a different blog post, but what search engines like as well.

17:44
And I've tested this out with client blog posts where we were talking about, we were talking about development for I'm not going to talk about that brand, but it was a blog post about development.

17:58
And we, what we did was that we, we did generic quite questions, but like, what are the four types of this thing?

18:04
And we went through the four types.

18:06
And then within it, I cited what they've done for their clients.

18:10
So it was like, here's not so it's like, this is the thing.

18:12
This is what it means.

18:13
This is what you do.

18:14
Here's a link to a case study.

18:17
So not only did that blog post ranked number one on Google, it also was #1 on its AI overviews with a link and with a snippet for that image that we used.

18:28
It was also top cited on ChatGPT as well.

18:32
So this is a perfect example where content can appear across all these different search platforms.

18:39
So when GEO Bros, I'm sorry, I just I'm just going to go over now.

18:44
GEO Bros, we're talking about being found on just AI platforms.

18:50
How about we get found on all of them?

18:53
Because that's what it's all about.

18:55
This is all like if you want to call it free traffic, it's not depends if you're paying someone or not, but these are all places you can be found the exact same content on.

19:06
However, people are going to be searching whether just using ChatGPT or they're using Google, Bing, whatever it happens to be.

19:12
If you're ranking on Google, you're going to rank as well on ChatGPT.

19:18
Great advice.

19:20
Can you offer any practical advice for any business owners with no scaremongering or overwhelm?

19:27
What's the couple of things they should be doing now?

19:30
OK, So what you should be doing now is first of all 2 tools, your Google Analytics and your Google Search Console.

19:38
Now Google Search Console only picks up traffic from Google search.

19:42
It's not showing AI overviews yet, which is a massive oversight.

19:46
But there we have it with Google Analytics.

19:49
I have custom reports set up for my clients to show all the traffic from all the LLMS on that.

19:57
So you can do that.

19:58
It's it doesn't take long, but it's just, it's basic.

20:02
You just make like a custom report and then you pop.

20:04
Open a little bit of code and then it will produce the report every month so you can start to see where you're getting traffic from.

20:12
It doesn't pick up the impressions without a click, so it's just literal traffic to your website if someone's actually clicked on the link.

20:20
Within that.

20:20
There are other tools that you can use.

20:22
They are paid for and they all seem to be pretty expensive, which is also another thing which is slightly causing a little bit of a ruffle of feathers I have to say in the marketing, marketing world and special sort of SEO GEO world.

20:42
So there are different ways you can track your track your traffic from all the different platforms.

20:47
I would say don't ignore what we, what has now been called traditional search engines.

20:54
Google is still top search.

20:58
People are using AI alongside it.

21:01
But in terms of traffic to sites, Google is number 1.

21:06
So yeah, those, those would be my, my top, my top things.

21:09
But also try not to get sucked into into the hype because it happens all the time.

21:14
Whatever new bit of software technology comes out, everyone starts read, talking about it and going, Are you ready?

21:21
You're going to get left behind.

21:23
This is dead.

21:23
This is the future.

21:26
It never is.

21:27
It never is.

21:28
So yeah, don't panic.

21:31
Don't suddenly stop doing your SEO.

21:35
Don't suddenly stop updating your website.

21:37
Because at the end of the day, if you stop updating your website and you stop working on it, how are AI platforms and LLMS going to find you exactly?

21:50
If business owners could fix only one thing on their website to improve visibility, what advice would you give?

21:58
Make sure it can be indexed, which sounds really simple, but it is massively overlooked.

22:05
I recently worked on a site that just been launched and it hadn't even been indexed at all in life for a few months because of various reasons.

22:14
And that was months and months of no traffic, no brand awareness at all.

22:19
So massive issue there.

22:21
So yeah, I'd say first and foremost, make sure it can be indexed.

22:24
It can't be indexed or trolled by bots, whether that's search engines or LLMS.

22:30
Then you know you're you're going nowhere fast.

22:35
OK, can you just explain the whole process of how people get their site indexed for those that don't know, a bit of a kind of worm.

22:45
So the usual issues, although it depends because I'm an SEO and I say it depends a hell of a lot.

22:52
So it does depend.

22:53
So the usual culprits are content.

22:55
If you have really thin content on your website or your internal pages, then search engines come along and they go, well, there's not a lot going on here.

23:04
Why should I bother indexing it?

23:05
You know, I've got tonnes of other pages that are indexed for the same things.

23:09
I'm up an index yours because it's, it's not right, frankly.

23:14
So watch your content, make sure it's useful, make sure it's talking to ideal client.

23:19
Like I mentioned, you know, with blog posts, blog posts are really awful for not being indexed because they're just thin or they're ChatGPT straight through.

23:29
The other thing for getting a new domain, it's brand new domain.

23:33
Indexed is your authority.

23:36
So you want to start thinking about your backlinks.

23:38
So when a new domain doesn't get indexed, it's usually because such engines just go, well, I'm faced with billions of websites and millions are being launched every day, every hour.

23:52
Index yours.

23:53
And again, it's down to authority.

23:55
And again, that is that is backlinks to your to your site.

23:58
So sort of even just, you know, doing simple things like linking from yell LinkedIn, you don't have to go down a massive pushed, paid for digital PR route.

24:08
You know, you can do it from three sources.

24:11
Again, just making sure your homepage is actually structured correctly.

24:15
So you've got the right information on there.

24:18
You're linking to your top pages within it.

24:22
Sorry, I just realised I asked you such a big question.

24:26
Right.

24:30
Something I always do is whenever I publish a new podcast episode or a blog, I always still go on to Google Search console and make sure that blog is indexed and to submit it anyway.

24:42
I mean, chances are Google or Bing will pick it up, but just in case they don't, I still just do the old fashioned indexing.

24:52
It's like one of my favourite things to do because don't rely on what's coming along.

24:57
Don't sort of think, just assume that they will.

25:00
Most often, you know, they will.

25:01
But actually it was another LinkedIn post for someone saying, oh, don't bother, you know, sort of doing a URL inspection and pushing it through.

25:08
It's like, well, why?

25:10
It's like a two second job.

25:11
Just pop, you've got a brand new blog post.

25:14
I do it all the time.

25:15
It gets indexed usually within like an hour.

25:18
That's massively speeded up and no, it's done, done.

25:22
It's like, why wouldn't you?

25:24
Yes, because it's a 5 minute job.

25:27
If that's that for a reason, like you say.

25:34
Absolutely.

25:34
I asked all my guests a bonus question at the end of the episode.

25:38
So Alice, what's the piece of advice that you come back to when things get tough?

25:50
When things get tough, this too shall pass.

25:56
This too shall pass, which is very open-ended.

25:59
I know a little bit of a cop out answer, but yeah, it does.

26:03
It does.

26:04
It's I will put my hand up and I say as an SEO, when ChatGPT came along, I thought, I'm not going to swear.

26:14
I thought Blimey, Blimey.

26:22
You can swear if you want, Governor.

26:25
Yeah, I thought Blimey.

26:26
OK, what's this gonna mean for kind of search SEOs, you know, my entire career is everything going to come falling down around my ears?

26:36
And then very, very quickly I was like, no, this is not this is not anything to be worried about.

26:42
It's a tool at the end of the day.

26:44
I would say if you're doing and like no offence to anyone, although I'm going to criticise now, no offence to everyone who does just use chat ChatGPT.

26:53
I'd say be very wary of just using ChatGPT because it is designed to tell you what you want.

26:59
And actually the IT was not the didn't post about it, which really sort of hammered at home.

27:04
It said it was.

27:07
I'm going to have to paraphrase because I can't remember the wording exactly, but it was like, only use ChatGPT to ask questions you already know the answer to.

27:20
And I was like, that perfectly, perfectly sums it up because ChatGPT and all its cousins and brothers and sisters love to hallucinate.

27:31
And I quite often have arguments with it.

27:33
Well, I know, I know it's wrong.

27:34
And I'm like, Are you sure?

27:35
Do you want to double check?

27:36
And it's like, oh, no, it is that.

27:37
And it's like, no, it's not.

27:39
And then I get really excellent puppy, but it apologises.

27:42
And guys, I always paid you a right because I know it was.

27:45
But yeah, it will hallucinate.

27:47
It will do snake stuff.

27:48
It will give you the wrong information because it's drawing data from lots of different sources.

27:53
So do your research and actually I'm not going to say I was caught out, but my husband, she's actually very tech savvy.

28:01
So I don't know what he was doing.

28:02
I think he was hallucinating.

28:04
But we got caught out with get Google AIO review with some advice on planning which was wrong.

28:13
So do your research.

28:17
That's very good advice.

28:18
So what happened with the planning then, Alice?

28:20
Oh God.

28:21
Well, yes, indeed it was my office actually.

28:25
And he read the overviews and missed the vital thing which said you need to get planning if it's on the side of the house, which it is.

28:33
So we had to do retrospective and luckily I don't have to tear it down or move it or anything like that.

28:38
But be very careful because obviously it costs money to go through retrospective.

28:42
So and we had to do various other things.

28:45
So yeah, anything I would say anything to do with financial or like Google's algorithm for your money or your life.

28:56
It's not an Adam and song.

28:57
It's literally called your money of your life.

28:59
Anything which has to do with your life or your money, anything which is going to hurt you health wise or financially.

29:06
Do your research.

29:08
Do not take ChatGPT as gospel, please.

29:12
Please.

29:14
And I'm sure people have seen news items about that.

29:16
So, yeah, with our age group, I assume we're similar.

29:22
We're similar, Alice.

29:23
I'm sure we're in the 40s.

29:25
I'm 45.

29:26
I don't know.

29:31
OK, so I’m 47

29:32
So I think when we use tools like ChatGPT, we do engage with it and we challenge it and we ask questions and we're doubtful.

29:44
Bit sceptical about the responses.

29:45
Perimenopausal.

29:46
I'm very argumentative now, but what I worry about is the Generation Z or even younger ones that use it and just simply copy and paste and just take the responses verbatim and they've not been trained or they're not developed yet enough to challenge it.

30:07
So that's what I worry about.

30:08
Not, not us middle-aged folks.

30:11
It's the younger generation that might not challenge it.

30:14
Yeah, I think, yeah, it is.

30:16
It is something which of course you need to be really mindful about.

30:19
And I think schools are doing really good work around that.

30:23
And I've got, I've got a nine year old and a six year old.

30:26
My 9 year old taught himself how to search when he was like 5.

30:31
I'm so proud.

30:32
I was like this is my job and you just taught yourself.

30:34
Although it was a bit like well OK let's just slow down.

30:37
My husband and I are very Aussie search and text savvy because of what we do, although my husband might need to actually go back and think think about that himself.

30:47
So we do we talk about it a lot of our kids and you know, don't believe everything that you read online and safety and online safety and things like that.

30:56
So, yeah, so I think coupled with you know, parents who can discuss it with their children and keep an eye on it and obviously how, you know, safety measures involved as well as very important.

31:07
And like we're fully aware of what our kids are doing, what they're looking at.

31:10
But also I know schools as well are very aware of it.

31:15
And I know that my kids have been covering that in school as well.

31:18
And like online safety, I mean, it's hard because obviously I'm in a bubble, you know, in my own sort of bubble.

31:25
But I'd like to think their generation, because they they're growing up with it, will be savvy.

31:35
That's brilliant.

31:36
Thank you so much again for your time, for joining me on the sessions.

31:40
Again, I really enjoyed our discussion and I sure hope listeners will find it very engaging.

31:47
If people want to connect with you, where can they find you, Alice?

31:51
Not a chatGPT, No, you will.

31:54
So LinkedIn.

31:56
I'm very active on LinkedIn.

31:58
Yeah, I would say LinkedIn is my is my little my little home.

32:02
I also have substack, but I'm hopeless with writing on that.

32:05
But yeah, come speak me up on LinkedIn.

32:09
Brilliant.

32:10
Thank you.

32:10
Thank you for your time.

32:11
Thanks.

32:12
Bye.

32:12
Bye.

Bye.